Protein/supplement questions over 50

[quote]I am a generally large framed man with a comfortably fit weight of around 260-280. Less than that I start to look sickly[/quote]

I mean...

That's just crazy tho, even if you're like 6'8 and were decades deep on a sustained body building program, and it still wouldnt be healthy then.

Even if it's all muscle and low body fat, you're going to have heart issues.

And you're taking creatine to bulk up?!

You're making you're problems worse. Start doing cardio instead of weights, and focusing on eating high fiber foods instead of "dieting" by not eating anything.

But you probably need to talk to an actual doctor bro.

[quote]ut when i cut down to 245 i looked anemic[/quote]

That's almost certainly body dismorphia tho...

Don't get me wrong, BMI doesn't work for outliers, but there's other things that do:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/ponderal-index

But you'd need to be 6'5 to barely squeak under obesity at 245... That certainly wouldn't be the cutoff where you think you look anemic, which doesn't really make sense but I'm assuming you mean weak looking?

Like, I'm absolutely massive, 6'4, played sports thru college. I just got down to 225 for the first time in a long time, and I definitely expected it to look slimmer than I do. Like, I have some ab definition but not the full blown six pack I thought I'd have at this weight when I was a lot heavier.

[quote]If i manage to get down to 280, ill look into trying to trim down some more while building actual muscle bulk[/quote]

As a wise man once said:

[quote]Mac, at some point you need to stop cultivating mass, and start harvesting it.[/quote]

Most importantly:

[quote]The glp1 has given me control of my diet i have never had before…[/quote]

It's not giving you control, it's drugging your body so it stops sending hunger signals. As soon as you go off those drugs, you'll gain the weight back.

Like I said in the beginning, just start eating high fiber foods, and then you can literally eat as much of everything else that you want. You just won't want anything else because you'll be full of fiber.

It's the same result as those drugs, except essentially free, a lifestyle change you can do forever, and even if you eventually give up, you're more likely to keep the weight off due to changing habits.

Seriously man, I'm not trying to just tear you down, but if you redirect the same energy you're already putting in, you can see some really good results.

All you gotta do is:

1. Cardio

2. Eat fiber

No, im not taking creatine to bulk up. Im taking creatine to hopefully help boost muscle growth. Im not looking to get big, im just looking to get generally stronger.

And no, 280 is probably not a healthy weight, but when i cut down to 245 i looked anemic. And really, i just want to have some level of fitness, where i can do a bootcamp, or workout, then go on a hike or cut grass, and end the day feeling ok. I asked about cardio, and was told to include it, but not focus on it .. that going into old(er) age they recommend strength training over cardio.

Again, im not trying to get swol, but im relatively weak and want to get back to being strong.

I appreciate your concern, and its noted. If i manage to get down to 280, ill look into trying to trim down some more while building actual muscle bulk, but right now, im just trying to do some work while I drop lbs. The glp1 has given me control of my diet i have never had before... Its not even that it helps curb my appetite, but how i think about food as a whole. Like when im out, the urge to eat fast food isnt gone per say, but I just think "meh, ill go home and have something healthier." That was NEVER part of the thought process before... Even at my lowest it was a tooth and nail struggle. All of that to say, im eating much healthier... And def a lot more fiber.

Sorry for over explaining. Im probably a little defensive. But i am trying to do better, and that plan may evolve as i (hopefully) do. I see a lot of people going on these meds and not changing their lifestyle. I dont want to do that.

exact same situation, my friend.

if you are looking for a caloric deficit (fat loss with minimal muscle loss or even some reasonable muscle gain with the test) then absolutely. ON is one of the standard go to protein sources. I have been using IsoPure whey isolate over the past few years and find its as good as or better than others. either option is good.

some may say that you cannot build on a caloric defict - and I call BS on that. if you have fat stores and you can absolutely build while catabolic and using 90 - 120 grams of protein daily to take advantage of anabolic periods. eat healthy, whole food as often as you can, but lean protein supplements like whey can keep you burning fat and building muscle.

one one other thing... dont overthink it. 50+ with test and your body will recover and grow like whe you were younger - even in a caloric deficit. 12 to 24 months later and you may be shocked at how ripped an old body can get.

p.s. test after 50 (or if you have natural deficiencies) is absolutely valid and useful for quality of life. younger or with normal test levels...? well then you better understand how test supplementation can (and will) screw you over beforehand. talk with a medical professional.

edit: I have used monohydrate and HCL. unless the HCL prices have dropped, I don't think its worth it. if you dont mind the monohydrate grit, its cheap as hell and effective. just be safe - test and creatine can make you feel as though you can lift more than you should. old men and joint injuries or serious muscle tears are generally incompatible :-)

I'm a little older than you, much less large-framed ( I ought be around 150-160-lbs ).

1. optimize your diet for YOU: https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/ayurvedic-healing-a-comprehensive-guide ( you may also find Frawley & Kozak's "Yoga For Your TYPE" key to improving your health! )

IF your metabolism is 1 fundamental-metabolism/dosha, THEN the experiment is:

- make pairs of dishes which have 1/2 be all pacifying-for-YOUR-metabolism ingredients, & the other 1/2 of the pair be all aggravating-for-your-metabolism.
- sit down without any distractions going-on, & experience each pair, & see what your body tells you, about the difference.

IF your metabolism is mixed, it may be harder to get clear signal.

IF your metabolism is all-3 mixed, then there isn't any point doing the experiment, unless 1 is stronger or weaker than the others.

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2. DGLS: Dairy + Grains provides better-completeness of protein.

Grains + Legumes/Pulses does, too.

Legumes/Pulses + Seeds/Nuts does, too.

IF you're using whey-protein, THEN you probably want some grain-protein with it, to give your body more-complete protein.

DGLS is from a hiker's handbook, from a decade or 2 ago, btw.

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3. An experiment you'll need to do, & periodically redo, is to find YOUR protein-requirement.

I don't eat meat, anymore.

Not compatible with the meditations I need/love.

Ideally I do mungs+rice, but tofu's MUCH less work than sorting mungs, to get the bad ones out, & eggs are much cheaper, per day, than tofu.

I need at-least 1/2-doz eggs / day, when on them.

( cooked is better than raw: more bioavailable for human digestion )

The diff beween 6/day & 3/day is like instant-disability.

When you find YOUR threshold for protein, you'll KNOW.

Once you know, then you simply don't need to bother buying more than you need, see?

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Do well, & find your right-way.

_ /\ _

Good for you for making positive changes in your life!

[quote]Is a whey powder like Gold Standard something I should be taking to supplement my exercising?[/quote]

Most unbiased sources will tell you that it is not strictly necessary, and in general it is recommended that you get your nutritional needs met from whole foods. But also, whey protein is basically the most well studied and proven-effective workout supplement that exists. Like... it's protein. If you aren't getting enough protein to support your workouts, a whey shake can be a quick and easy way to increase protein intake. Add to this the fact that it is quite cheap, and there is no real reason not to supplement with a protein shake.

As for which brand to buy - avoid the uber cheap brands sold online, unless they have independent third party testing. In the US at least, supplements are not regulated to the same standards as food, so it is possible for these products to be contaminated with toxins like heavy metals that could be dangerous to long term health. Ideally you would be able to source reliable third party testing for any whey product you might consider buying... but ime, this data can be difficult to find. So my recommendation is to just go to the grocery store and buy a name brand, since the manufacturer will be incentivized to not poison their customers, lest their good reputation be sullied.

As far as which brand in particular to buy... it probably doesnt matter that much. Try a few and see what you like. Taste will probably be the biggest difference. Maybe one brand gives you gas. But people who swear by one brand or another, in my view, are expounding on some kind of cognitive bias rather than an actual lived experience. If you are lifting heavy and eating a reasonable amount of dietary protein, then taking a supplement is just there to eak out the last bit of gains you might be missing, over the course of months. Anyone who claims that they can "feel it working" after a workout or something does not understand the mechanism of how this supplement works.

[quote]I have already ordered some Creatine HCL, on the recommendation of a trainer at the gym. I have done some reading on it, and realize there is some debate on if it is better than Creatine monohydrate, worse, or generally undecided… But I figured something was better than nothing, and I didn’t want to deal with possible side effects from the monohydrate.[/quote]

I've never heard of HCL. But regular old creatine monohydrate is the second best studied and evidence supported supplement we know of. Not sure what sides you are talking about. The ones I know of are slight water retention in the muscles (which is basically a non-issue), some gassiness when you take it (take it with a meal), and hair loss (disputed, probably just a corrolation between men losing their hair and deciding it is time to get jacked). If HCL avoids these issues for you.... great! But it doesnt have the same ro

Thanks for the recommendation on brand and the advice on both supplements! I am at a calorie deficit, and trying to keep it that way. Lol. My food intake has drastically changed. I might still have a giant shitty meal every now and again... But 1) the term "giant" now isna lot different than it used to be, and 2) the "cheat" meal doesn't carry on for the following day/week/month/year.

Im trying hard to watch my workouts, so i dont get hurt. Ive already identified some tricep exercises im doing that are going to go back to dumbells, because the machine i was using did not feel great on my shoulder.

So far, ive been surprised at the calories I burn in a workout, and the enjoyment I get at doing it. Its a chore to drag myself there, but i always like being there and doing some work

Protein supplement can be helpful, but maybe not necessary.

1. Are you vegetarian/vegan? If not, I would just get your protein from animal sources.
2. I would strongly suggest learning free weights. Particularly squat, deadlift and bench. Machines isolate your movement, so you don't get the same physiological stimulus. Bench is the only one you need a spotter for, but pushups are a viable substitute. I've heard anecdotal claims that free weights can improve testosterone levels.
3. 3 full body days will help you more in beginner stages. Splits are more advanced. I've been exercising fairly intensely for years and still don't do splits.

I would consider protein supplement a kind of premature optimization. You'll do better to

Thanks for your response. I appreciate the advice. I realize that you and others might see a goal weight if 280 as insane.. and it is frustrating to try to make people realize i know its not ideal, and if i reach that weight i may very well carry on. But it is a goal, and if i ever manage to reach it, I will frankly be amazed, AND it will represent a huge chunk of weight. When i went to the doc in December, i was 370. So 280 might seem crazy, but that is my current long-term goal, and one I would expect is over a year off.

I think it is totally reasonable to set a goal weight that seems sustainable to you. Keeping the weight off is always the hardest part, so if you can get to that range and keep it off for 5 years, you are doing better than most people.

I was more commenting on the fact that you said you look "sickly" below that range - which is more indicative of some kind of body dysmorphia.

I am a much smaller frame, 5'11 @ 180 lbs. When I quit drinking, I was up to 250lbs for a bit, but I just stopped eating as much and I lost the weight. Even when I got a belly a time or two before that, I never went on a diet: I adjusted my habits completely. (Or just drank more black coffee... Not a healthy option, but it was an option that suppressed hunger and got me out of the get-hungry-more-because-I-was-eating-more cycle.)

These days, I just run. Cardio can really suck ass at times, but it works wonders. Once you get into extended aerobic exercise, your body has to burn fat for energy at higher rates. (I am absolutely lacking on the anaerobic side of things except for the sprints I do every week.)

Big, small, tall or short, your body needs protein. It needs more protein when you work out. Whey protein is the "gold standard", but usually because it's effective and usually a good value. Hydrolyzed protein is easier for your body to take in because it's (essentially) partially digested proteins. (It's easier on my stomach as well, which is why I take it.)

I would speculate that your protein intake calculation is not going to be near what you think it will be, or even close to what the interwebs will tell you (it's all weight based calculations) until you get your fat to muscle ratio closer to whatever a "normal" ratio is so take that into account.

You didn't ask for any opinion of mine, so take this with a grain of salt. It's just my thoughts on supplementation in general, but you do you.

My method for adjusting any system is to establish a stable baseline first, before all else. If the system is stabilizing or going through massive changes, tuning that system for performance is the last thing on my list.

Supplements didn't make sense to me until I actually started to need them and had some kind of stable system to work with after months of learning to run again. By all means, supplement but supplement when it is measurably effective. (Protein powder is expensive for what it is, and you shouldn't just literally piss it out if your body doesn't need it.)

Oof, yeah, injuries can be tough.

I'd recommend finding both a good physio and a good personal trainer. In both cases, the guiding philosophy of both should be that injury should not end training, only modify it.

The physio should be able to give you a program to heal your injury and, importantly, a timeline for injury recovery, and program modifications if you aren't steadily progressing back to full health at the expected rate. If you don't feel yourself making progress each week, and your physio seems unconcerned, you need to tell them to eat a dick and find a different one. My physio works with professional athletes, and understands that training and competition cannot stop due to injury, and so all of my recovery programs start with "don't stop training, but here are things to limit or avoid".

Similarly with a personal trainer, they should know how to work around injuries to keep you on track to reach your goals. Remember that the main benefit of a personal trainer is simply being another person who can keep you accountable. Most good trainers are open to doing single sessions, where you can explain what you want - eg, program modifications to keep you on track to your goals, which will work around your injury. Then they can write up a modified program for you and send you on your way. A lot of people will say "I could figure that out myself, it's a waste of money." But like you experienced, it isn't just about the knowledge, but the emotional component. When you suffer from an injury, a big part of the role of the personal trainer is to share the emotional load of believing that there is still some way to keep training while you recover.