When does. Trying to convince someone become trying to manipulate someone

Convincing someone is an attempt to manipulate them into changing their behaviour.

Giving your reasoning seems to me like you are attempting to educate. Nothing wrong with that as long as people are asking for your opinion.

I would also like to hear other people persoective on that.

Because obvious answer would be to convince them on subconscious level instead by directly convincind them.

But a mere praise can often change someone interest and even values.

It gets even trickier if we are talking about raising a kid. You actually want them to adopt your values etc... You are supposed to praise the behaviour you want. Especially if they are to small to understand reasoning. And you fully understand you are completely shapping their personality on a level they do not understand.

So I do not know. Maybe all of that is manipulation but not all manipulation is bad?

(edit: sent mid sentence on accident)

Every interaction between humans is manipulation. Every single one - including not saying something.

With that framing: Your question sounds to me about the negative connotation ("being manipulative" - and for me that's simple: sincerity and intent.

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Before coming to your last paragraph I go with an extreme as example, abuse, because it's so black and white:

I try to convince you to leave your abusive partner. I try to alter your whole life - because I'm convinced that it's the right thing for you.

If I tell you the same thing to get off with your current partner or to harm you, it's manipulative.

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Now for your example: For me it's the foundation of our human interaction to bridge gaps - social, communicative, personal.

We always have incomplete data sets (if only about the perception, interpretation and knowledge of the other people around us). We're always in an interpretation gap.

Now if you withhold information other humans are worse off, even ignoring what other people call "the objective truth": they don't know where you stand, what your reasoning is and what values you hold. All of this shines through even when just saying, as a random example, "I don't want bacon" - this can be health, religion, mood, taste and a miryad of other things related that will help other people connect (or avoid) you.

In short: don't break other people's heads! Every human needs to evaluate information they get - as long as you're sincere and don't try to evoke a behavior that you know is against the best of your surrounding you wouldn't fall into "manipulative" in my book.

I got a better answer just by reading a definition of manipulation:

to change by deceptive or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

It is as much about the means as it is about the purpose. So if you are manipulating a kid so they behave in a way that will help him get throug life this is not manipulation. But if you manipulate them into something that only serves you... Yeah that is manipulation.

So in case of convincing someone in a debate it depends. If you goal is to win a debate by manipulation, so you can feel as a winner, that is manipulation. But if you want yo educate them this is not.

Educated seem like a lionization. But I have adopted the mindset socializing the information and doing my best to communicate. Also I shouldn't worry too much about being wrong when convincing people. If I'm pushed on something I do my best to say how I know.

You can shape the personality of adults if you really wanted. Children will take after their parents, but that could be because of genetics.


So if you wanted to go by dictionary definitions "serve one's purpose" can be expanded to parasitism and and symbiosis. You can to see for mutually beneficial purposes. Or you can just see for purely selfish purposes and at the cost of the person you're receiving (scam).

Are you transparent with what your goals are. Are you giving them correct information. Are you giving them all important information and not lying by omission.

When they say no, and that’s final/to drop it, and you still try to convince them.

when you want them do something at thier expense, like convincing them to drive you everywhere or live rentfree at thier property in indefinitely, or isolating a SO/ or anyone(extreme) so they are more dependent on you, usually these forms require deception as well, or emotional guilt tripping.

Every interaction between humans is manipulation. Every single one - including not saying something.

I disagree with this, it's overly broadening the definition. If you're upfront and clear with someone, for example saying "your partner is abusive, with these exact examples", that's not manipulation because it's not underhanded or subtle. It's just trying to help. I don't think we have a good word in English for "changing someone's mind or behaviour" in a neutral or positive way. At least I'm not remembering it right now. Maybe persuade?

For it to be manipulation you would have to be sneaky about it. I'm not a manipulative person so it's hard to think of examples but something like, making it seem like their current partner is cheating on them via clever wordplay and deliberate clues left lying around "by accident". Even if the end goal is good, the method is manipulative and clandestine. Honesty is the difference here. In the first example we were upfront and clear with our intentions and beliefs.